Newcomb: An uncomfortable truth
By
Steven Newcomb
|
| As a case in point, the Doctrine of Christian Discovery was not raised in the San Francisco Peaks case. |
That premise is this: Because the ancestors of the non-Indian society were “Christian people,” and our indigenous ancestors were not, the non-Indian society of the United States has presumed itself to have an unquestionable right to exert an ultimate control over indigenous nations and to expropriate our traditional territories and waters for the profit, growth, and economic viability of the society of the United States.
The uncomfortable truth is that the vast majority of the federal Indian law attorneys, even those who are Indian, have been unwilling to explicitly condemn the presumed supremacy of “Christian people” as the basis for the initial premise of U.S. federal Indian law: Because our Native ancestors were labeled “heathens and infidels” when Christian monarchies invasively arrived to this hemisphere, the United States is supposedly entitled to exert plenary power (ultimate sovereign control) over our respective Indian nations and over our traditional territories.
There was no ambiguity on the part of the United States government attorneys when, in 1954, in the case Tee Hit Ton, they argued that according to the international law shared in common by “Christian nations” the lands of “heathens and infidels” were deemed to be open to acquisition by Christian nations. This is a religiously premised argument. It is also racist, to be sure, but it is an argument made by the United States government on the basis of the Christian religion.
The majority in Tee Hit Ton concurred with this argument in the court’s decision written by Justice Stanley Reed. It was Reed who, in a dissenting opinion in an earlier case, had said that the theory put forth in the 1823 case Johnson v. M’Intosh was that “discovery by Christian nations, gave them sovereignty over and title to the lands discovered.”
Yet, given this irrefutable formation, why is it that hardly any attorneys working in the area of federal Indian law seem willing to challenge the fallacious Christian religious premise that was first articulated by the U.S. Supreme Court in Johnson v. M’Intosh, a case that Lindsay Robertson in his book “Conquest by Law” has documented was fraudulent to begin with? (The attorneys for the land companies in the Johnson v. M’Intosh case hired the attorneys for William M’Intosh).
As a case in point, the Doctrine of Christian Discovery was not raised in the San Francisco Peaks case. How is it that although indigenous nations have had a sacred spiritual relationship with the peaks for thousands of years, and spiritual knowledge keepers and ceremonial leaders still maintain that relationship to this day, yet all those thousands of years are negated in favor of the commercial interests of a non-Indian ski resort?
| Almost all these attorneys seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the beginning premise of federal Indian law. |
The answer is this: Indigenous spiritual and ceremonial knowledge and practice in relation to a specific sacred place is negated by the fact that the Christian mission of subdue and dominion has been interwoven into U.S. law and policy and used against the earth-centered spiritual traditions of indigenous nations and peoples. On the covert basis of the doctrine of terra nullus promulgated by the Catholic Church, thousands of years of spiritual and ceremonial evolution are being rendered null and void by the courts of the United States, such as in the case of San Francisco Peaks.
In this case, the term nullus refers to “heathens, pagans, infidels, or unbaptized people.” When a land (terra) is inhabited by non-Christians (those who have never been baptized – and who are therefore not subject to the jurisdiction of the pope and of the Roman Church – the entire way of life and, indeed, the people themselves are conceptualized as being null and void, and incapable of standing against the Christian monarch’s presumed authority.
The uncomfortable truth is that the vast majority of federal Indian law attorneys are either uninformed about this history, or else disinclined to bring up the religiously racist foundation of federal anti-Indian law and policy.
Speaking truth to power must begin with truthful and accurate information about the nature of the “legal” arena within which the debate over American Indian human rights and the protection of sacred places has been taking place and will continue to take place. Indian nations now have the opportunity to come together in common cause against the doctrines of Christian supremacy and terra nullus.
Let us hope that the attorneys working in the field of federal Indian law will explicitly repudiate and work to end the use of the Doctrine of Christian Discovery and supremacy against Indian nations, just as Thurgood Marshall and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People in their time worked to end segregation in the United States.
Steven Newcomb, Shawnee and Lenape, is co-founder and co-director of the Indigenous Law Institute and author of “Pagans in the Promised Land: Decoding the Doctrine of Christian Discovery” (Fulcrum, 2009).
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Friday, Feb 5 at 2:54 AM Victor Silvas Jr. wrote ...
To Newcomb: It all started with the Major Crimes Act in 1885 for those that do not know where it started.
37038529Monday, Feb 1 at 3:55 PM Newcomb wrote ...
To Wabus44: Thanks for a great comment. Part of the problem is that we are using "their" ideas and their concepts "law" to answer fundamentally important questions about our own political identities as nations and poeoples. People often talk about "the law" when, in fact, they are only talking about "their law." How did their law become law for originally free and independent nations and peoples? When we look back at the arguments used by the United States we arrive at the "right of discovery."
36776579Monday, Feb 1 at 5:29 AM wabus44 wrote ...
Once again, while appreciating the argument, there is a problem with it. It assumes that the DD is a single concept. In the legal history, it is clear that until legal positivism became dominant (when they stopped treaty making), despite the racist attitudes and policies, the law recognized inherent tribal sovereignty. If one buys into Newcomb's argument, it unimtentionally undermines this reality. To overturn the positivist reinterpretation of DD will require: (TBC)
36748684Saturday, Jan 30 at 10:30 AM Anonymous wrote ...
for your country." I present that to all of you. Ask not what Indian Country can do for you, ask what YOU can do for Indian Country. Indian Country does not exist without each and everyone of us, but we can exist without Indian Country. Look in the mirror, have you taken care your children and if you have, have you taken care your Nation's children, to educate and to promote the welfare of your Nation and get them ready to battle in thia world we will soon leave them in. With that I leave you.
36669012Saturday, Jan 30 at 10:23 AM Anonymous wrote ...
, that even if all the pieces were to fall in place and the moons and planets were aligned just right, we would have a minute chance of winning? We, as Indian Country, need to start excercising our SOVEREIGNTY as its truly meant and make our own law for Indian Country on a National level. How we get there will be a true test of our preserverenceand self-determination. You know what I never knew quite what JFK meant when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do..
36668634Saturday, Jan 30 at 10:13 AM Anonymous wrote ...
arguing or debating Indian law. I said maybe my sons' generation will be judges interpreting Indian law for Indian Country. And their kids' generation will be making law for Indian Country as legislators. But then you realize that even to become a judge you have to be political. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're fighting a battle on their terms and their law that favors them. As Indian Law Indian lawyers were arguing law made by non-Indians for Indian Country. Why fight a battle...
36668164Saturday, Jan 30 at 10:00 AM Victor Silvas Jr. wrote ...
I was speaking with my mother one day a while back about our current situation at the time with our casino. We were talking about the Indian Law Lawyers before Indian Country started gaming. It was hard to find a Lawyer for hire in regards to Indian Law for tribes, until Indian Gaming started and tribes had money for attorneys. We talked about the civil rights movement for Indian Country. Her generation was militant in action. This generation (mygeneration) has Indian Indain LAw attorneys...
36667654Saturday, Jan 30 at 9:49 AM Victor Silvas Jr. wrote ...
I have read all the posts up to this point and I'm sad to say that half of them sound like my 12-year-old son and my 10-year-old son bickering over the PS3, in other words you sound like children. Remember it takes two to tango, no matter the intentions. It is wise to listen and grow than to stay ignorant (means to be uneducated on a subject)and show it by speaking. With that said, I was speaking with my one day while back and our current situation at the time with our casino. We were talking...
36667202Friday, Jan 29 at 5:21 PM Mr. Zabarte wrote ...
FYI-Mr. Newcomb is one of the fine broad thinkers on Native American issues. Those jealous individuals Indian or not should google my name and know that I am proud to have worked with and still do work with Mr. Newcomb for nearly 20 years. Look into your heart, use the intertweb then conserve energy and don't speak.
36632742Friday, Jan 29 at 5:16 PM Mr Zabarte wrote ...
I am a "Born Again Pagan" to quote Oren Lyons. I appreciate the premis of Mr. Newcomb's argument and even though the context is the same the truth is that bar certified attorneys are officers of the court and cannot really effect the kind of true sovereign immunity their peoples once exercised. Once we acknowledge the truth we will see the options we need for the defense of our rights.
36632374Thursday, Jan 28 at 10:32 AM AmericAWordsMatter wrote ...
@Newcomb, that is why I said, "think". The very constructs of the Papal Bull, ordained of God?! That is why the very moral premise of their legal double-talk has no power over us. This land has been consecrated for the worship of the Creator. I see no "moral-ness" in their works. 7 years of research has found conclusively something more profound than the illusion of Govtl Christianity. @Kinew, the time is here, the time is now. What we have been waiting for for 500 years is now here in our hands
36523802Tuesday, Jan 26 at 7:42 PM Kinew wrote ...
While Newcomb and D"errico obviously have the means to mind F--- themselves to oblivion on this very esoteric subject ,valid as it is, Native country has real everyday issues of mere survival to work with. One day soon these real issues will eclipse all of this. Something like the French revolution.
36418722Tuesday, Jan 26 at 6:23 PM Newcomb wrote ...
To Words Matter: No, what I said is that the U.S. Supreme Court in Johnson said, based on English charters and papal bulls, that when "Christian people" "discover" lands inhabited by "heathens" the Christians have the right to asssume complete control over the non-Christian lands. They had to come up with something and that's what the court came up with.
36414359Tuesday, Jan 26 at 6:20 PM anonymous wrote ...
Great comment Michael Mack!! That is precisely what we need to do....
36414167Tuesday, Jan 26 at 5:43 PM AmericAWordsMatter wrote ...
Interesting article. You state that their premise to power over us is the the people who ran the government of the United States were Christians. The world is going to be in for a stunning shock...they are not. Would you state their actions support the present ideal of a Christ's values? Have they ever? There is something inherently wrong with this picture. Think. Were the Native Nations the first people of color for the whites to encounter? No. Christ himself was very close to our skin-type.
36411787Tuesday, Jan 26 at 3:17 PM 4globe wrote ...
Perhaps one strategy towards overcoming the racist foundations of American law is to work hard to place courageous American Indians into federal judgeships, including the US Supreme Court.
36400947Monday, Jan 25 at 10:18 PM Michael Mack wrote ...
The point of my comment about PRETENSE is that since the "doctrine" is so obviously a LIE, even its author acknowledges this FACT, why does Indian Country not take direct aim at this lie? Elaborations about how the sorry history of how the lie has been implemented should be directed at how to refute it in today's terms. Failure to refute the lie only prolongs it.
36357004Monday, Jan 25 at 7:32 AM NZer wrote ...
oops sorry something wrong with the text box. What I meant to say was ...All administrations need money like we need resources from the natural world. Stop paying rates, taxes, mortgages, credit cards, anything that constitutes the life blood of this system.
36299084Monday, Jan 25 at 7:28 AM NZer wrote ...
We have a treaty in NZ that is a bit special - it only allows the British Crown to adminisiter (govern) land that it has bought - not land it has stolen, confiscated or taken by any other shonky 'legal' means. That is the premise that I as a non Maori but a 5th generation New Zelander refuse to pay rates to local govermenmt on. All admineerstions need money like vampires they need the blood monmey of living breathing human beings. Stop paying for your subgenerati
36298987Tuesday, Jan 19 at 8:47 PM CurtJ wrote ...
When are we as a people, going to take the United States to Woel Court for their Colonialism policies of Theft and Murder? The centuries of invading weaker countries to steal their natural resources and lands for Colonization. Along with the enslavement, rape, murder and genocide of the Indigenous inhabitiants. Theft and Murder. Church sanctioned in exchange for part of the loot and lands. When is Indian Country going to print one of my posts? Or is it limited to "Around the Fort " natives?
35949867Tuesday, Jan 19 at 3:57 PM Lazy Wolf wrote ...
All the Native Lawyers should form an organization to band and work together on legal issues facing the Native American Nation.
35930917Monday, Jan 18 at 6:18 PM The master of ALL race, The POPE wrote ...
The question I have: How long will the millions of indigenous people continue to allow the fiction of christain "morality," existing within U.S.and International law, continue their fictional "dominion" over us? Wake up people! Their law is fiction, we make it real and give away our power by allowing it to go on. Darn acculturation and assimilation programs have worked because our leaders and lawyers think from the "dominion" paradigm and not from a free independent nation paradigm. Think!
35870587Monday, Jan 18 at 11:03 AM Newcomb wrote ...
Marshall said that a "pretension" (something one pretends to be true, but isn't) can become "the law of the land." However, it ought to be clear that such a pretend "law" is only as strong as the original pretension that isn't true to begin with. Such a lie should not be dignfied with the word "law."
35842942Monday, Jan 18 at 10:32 AM 4globe wrote ...
The attorneys and judges are confined to the law that exists, not the law that we wish to have enforced. We'll have more success in Congress.
35840979Sunday, Jan 17 at 11:28 AM Back to Michael Mack wrote ...
In Johnson V McIntosh, Marshall wrote "[h]owever extravagant the pretension of converting the discovery of an inhabited country into conquest may appear, if the principle has been asserted in the first instance ... if a country has been acquired and held under it; ... it becomes the law of the land, and cannot be questioned." Why hasn't NDN country focused on Marshall's acknowledgment of the PRETENSE of the Discovery Doctrine? Isn't use of the word pretense acknowledging it is a LIE?
35791282Sunday, Jan 17 at 10:12 AM Trollspotter wrote ...
Charlie, Charlie how you go on. Trollspotter hasn’t even mentioned his Native significance. You’re talking about yourself. My 2 previous posts compared to your 13 as Troll Kinew have hardly made a mockery of anything. Another troll technique to change the subject. As I said before, it is a real testament to the importance of this topic that you …are trying so hard to change the subject. Newcomb narcissistically ”making a mockery of Newcomb” – that’s Troll Kinew’s poison and his non logic.
35788277Sunday, Jan 17 at 1:53 AM Charlie wrote ...
Trollspotter you have made a mockery of Newcomb and this very important life-changing subject. We know you are Newcomb playing this narcissistic role while trying to convince everyone of your Native significance.
35779829Saturday, Jan 16 at 10:46 AM Trollspotter wrote ...
Well boys, high noon on the blog spot. What a great troll activity Kinew. Threaten that you and your boys will take care of this, knowing that you won’t reveal contact info. You have almost successfully changed the subject on this blog and earned your right wing Republican pay check for being a good troll. Meanwhile there are other bloggers who are interested in overthrowing the racist basis of federal Indian law, so you didn’t really win.
35749777Saturday, Jan 16 at 6:29 AM Kinew wrote ...
Starstruck, Just as I thought your just stupid. Words have nothing to do with courage or bravery. You should know that. You never put it on the line, just hid behind words. Bye Bye
35744099Friday, Jan 15 at 9:49 PM Starman wrote ...
Kinew-Yeah, it figures. No one has ever accused you of being brave or courageous. email and phone number please.
35729869Friday, Jan 15 at 9:29 PM Kinew wrote ...
Yea I said where and when, unless your as stupid as you seem.
35729037Friday, Jan 15 at 8:22 PM Starman wrote ...
Kinew-Sure thing. Give me your email address and your phone number. I wont hold my breath waiting.
35726107Friday, Jan 15 at 5:32 PM Kinew wrote ...
Starstruck, Wow what a response. Anytime you want to hook up with me and my other brothers (Veterans) just let me know where and when.
35716027Thursday, Jan 14 at 12:02 PM starman wrote ...
Kinew-and no one wants to hear what a federal government loving apple like you has to say.
35548724Thursday, Jan 14 at 9:45 AM Michael Mack posted & erased wrote ...
12 36 In Johnson V McIntosh, Marshall wrote "[h]owever extravagant the pretension of converting the discovery of an inhabited country into conquest may appear, if the principle has been asserted in the first instance ... if a country has been acquired and held under it; ... it becomes the law of the land, and cannot be questioned." Why hasn't NDN country focused on Marshall's acknowledgment of the PRETENSE of the Discovery Doctrine? Isn't use of the word pretense acknowledging it is a LIE?
35537884Thursday, Jan 14 at 9:37 AM Native2 wrote ...
Michael Mack, in other words Marshall said ‘however extravagant the [LIE] of converting the discovery of an inhabited country into conquest may appear …it becomes the law of the land and cannot be questioned”. Why can’t we question it? Because Marshall said so, or because we believe Marshall or the Pope to be definitive experts. It is the very time to question these assumptions of superiority for the racist assumptions that they are, and to see it is our duty to our ancestors to question it.
35537332Thursday, Jan 14 at 6:32 AM Kinew wrote ...
report and native, or peter and steve stay delusional all you want. Stay in your head and write "controversial" things from your middle class perspective. Real natives do'nt care what you say here.
35531224Thursday, Jan 14 at 3:24 AM Rezilla wrote ...
Tribes are only as sovereign as we are willing to be. To be sovereign we have to live sovereign. Everything else if fiction. Just like a wise judge once told me... plenary power is fiction. Asserting our sovereignty does not have to be a losing battle. We are as free as we collectively want to be.
35527794Wednesday, Jan 13 at 11:36 PM wanting to help our people wrote ...
i'd like to thank those of u who actually talked about things to help our ndn people its nice to read these n actually learn thank u
35518734Wednesday, Jan 13 at 11:13 PM Native wrote ...
Kinew's finally revealed what's really important in his life. Who would have known it?? Now (after a good laugh), we can go on to dismiss the rest of his comments on the topic of Doctrine of Discovery.
35517534Wednesday, Jan 13 at 9:39 PM Report wrote ...
Kinew-You didn't enlist to hone any skills. If you had then you would have used them by now. You are a lover of the federal government and would give your life to protect it instead of opposing it. Now that you revealed a bit about your past, your true nature is made clear
35512462Wednesday, Jan 13 at 8:44 PM Kinew wrote ...
Rabbit - You and your friends can propose to resist all you want. We enlist in the Armed forces to hone our skills to defend the mother land. Thats resistance.
35509462Wednesday, Jan 13 at 8:40 PM Kinew wrote ...
Startsruck, I have no love or any thing else for federal law. So you are way off base there and just drop anything connected to it. Again what we have here is an unrecognized so called Native person articulating and promoting a book for his own benefit on an intellectual concept called the Doctrine of discovery. I say there are many other important issues to focus on ,period.
35509187Wednesday, Jan 13 at 7:06 PM Practical Pointmaker wrote ...
But, be fully aware that we may lose some to "selling out" ($$) or those with weak foundations leading to the "apple" concept (loses or never had an incorruptible Indian identity). If these folks define the body of ndn lawyers serving Indian country, then I can understand the frustration - but don't see it. So, what case facts might launch a plausible and favorable attack on the DD? Maybe folks from the Supreme Court Project have some ideas???
35503222Wednesday, Jan 13 at 6:57 PM Practical Pointmaker wrote ...
I can't say what worked in the 60s will work now and for politically-recognized tribes. Apples and oranges. Sure, at the heart of most adverse decisions is blatant racism, but many ndn lawyers (most, in my opinion) are already quite cohesive on the mission to infiltrate all levels of decision-makers - whether it is themselves (in certain positions or in client advocacy), other tribal leaders or even non-Indians that "get it." Right or wrong, that's what is happening folks. It's a different day
35502687Wednesday, Jan 13 at 12:43 PM 4globe wrote ...
Overturning the DD is going to be difficult but not impossible -- we have the space shuttle "Discovery", another one is called "Columbia", our capitol city is the "District of Columbia". We're dealing with an ingrained Eurpoean cultural bedrock that is also entrenched deep within our legal system too, so deep that it becomes one and the same with the Vatican. So what can we do about it? Read and know the treaties, stand with and support those who keep true to our right to self-determination.
35470162Wednesday, Jan 13 at 12:28 PM Starman wrote ...
Kinew-Newcomb is correct here and I have something more to add. You talk of suicides, gangs etc, and that is a reality on the rez. The other reality is that your darling fed ndn law is responsible for that situation. Furthermore, none of these fed ndn law attorneys are working on solutions to fix those problems you mentioned. In fact, you are your fed ndn law defenders perpetuate these problems to justify your paychecks. What do you think about that?
35468927Wednesday, Jan 13 at 11:59 AM Wm. Rabbit wrote ...
Kinew and other critics should direct their hostility at the real enemy, the U.S. and other governments that oppress native people -- not native people who propose to resist, or our friends and allies. In any struggle there must be many fronts. Sometimes the front is intellectual, sometimes it is physical, sometimes it is economic or political -- it should always be guided by our ceremonies. Judy is right that we need to have a clear understanding of tactics and history. One fight, many fronts.
35466172Wednesday, Jan 13 at 11:46 AM Native2 wrote ...
Kinew, that’s your uncomfortable truth, not ours. Newcomb’s point that “The uncomfortable truth is that the vast majority of the federal Indian law attorneys, even those who are Indian, have been unwilling to explicitly condemn the presumed supremacy of “Christian people” as the basis for the initial premise of U.S. federal Indian law” clearly gets under your skin to the point that you (using several troll-like identities) have tried to change the subject to prevent thoughtful dialogue. Cool!
35465099Wednesday, Jan 13 at 7:11 AM Kinew wrote ...
An uncomfortable truth is that Newcomb sits in California telling everyone he can through ICT how important this "Discovery" is while the crucial issues like pollution,suicide, drug use and gangs exist. People do'nt have time to intellectualize these concepts when they're hungry.
35448052Wednesday, Jan 13 at 2:09 AM Common Sense wrote ...
Do you really think that the Supreme Court is going to buy this argument? "Whoops, that was a big mistake, sorry, here is all your land back." Tribes have real issues at stake, and their attorneys have to make legal arguments that have at least a chance of winning-Indianlawyer made this correct statement several days ago, which all common sense Natives agree.
35441409Wednesday, Jan 13 at 12:39 AM Judy wrote ...
Study up on civil disobedience and you will see that it's not violent. Ever heard of Ghandi or Martin Luther King Jr. Anyone with any knowledge of the civil rights movement knows it took tremendous personal sacrifice and, yes, civil disobedience. What do you think those people were doing when they sat at the lunch counters or at the front of the bus? It sounds like "native" thinks of civil disobedience in the same way as those so called commentators on Fox News.
35438024Wednesday, Jan 13 at 12:26 AM Quixote wrote ...
Actually, the "Doctrine of Christian Discovery" is a misnomer. First, it was simply the Doctrine of Discovery until someone needed to publicize a book. Second, it was, itself, based on Roman legal doctrine and practices from before the Christian era began. You might as well call it the Roman Doctrine of Discovery and rail against the actions of the Legions in Germania setting the precedent. Hope you sell lots of books, but I'm not seeing much practical effect on current law and practice.
35437314Tuesday, Jan 12 at 10:58 PM Native wrote ...
Judy's suggestion merely exposes her true identity, a troll. She believes overturning the Doctrine [her quote] "will require a national movement by native people that will have to use tactics like civil disobedience." This is a well-known played-out diversionary tactic of trolls. Suggesting acts of violence so the government can label us (once again) as militants. No, our nations will never go this route.
35431752Tuesday, Jan 12 at 8:29 PM Judy wrote ...
Hattie, you sound an awful lot like a conspiracy minded person who thinks every opinion that differs from yours is the work of that citizens website you constantly spam these forums with. Why do I believe most ndns are apathetic? Well, it's because I come from a community in which most people complain and but refuse to act when given the chance. Every other rez I've visted is the same. Maybe you come from a rich tribe where you hire consultants to do your work but most of us use elbow grease.
35421724Tuesday, Jan 12 at 8:21 PM Kinew wrote ...
As always let white people lead the way, frame the issue,articulate the issue,have the issue printed and get paid for it. The Onieda nation has a mostly all white police force. Foxwoods has Conn. state troopers guard the place. Sovereignty? Where? Starman we are not talking about me I do'nt write fornon native publications.
35421279Tuesday, Jan 12 at 8:00 PM Hattie wrote ...
Well now, Judy. You sound an awful lot like the “agents provocateurs” of the sixties who infiltrated all the civil rights groups to create trouble. No one has mentioned anything about ‘slick legal maneuvering’ except you. And if you have such a negative opinion about Indian people being apathetic or assimilated, could it be that they are apathetic to you? There may be dozens of cases and dozens of attorneys. There is no room for insults and impatience. With all due respect.
35420172Tuesday, Jan 12 at 7:38 PM Judy wrote ...
With all due respect, I do think that overturning the Doctrine and the cases based on it will require more than slick legal maneuvering. I think it will require a national movement by native people that will have to use tactics like civil disobedience, economic solidarity, legislative strategy etc. I dont think overturning the doctrine is as simple as an attorney single handedly doing it on their own. Now, how do we create a national movement when most ndns are apathetic or assimilated?
35418877Tuesday, Jan 12 at 6:05 PM 4globe wrote ...
Congressional plenary power over Indian Tribes needs to be reduced so that it does not allow further wrongheaded intrusions such as evidenced in the Cobell case or in the plethora of cases that were wrongly decided by the Indian Claims Commission. Or in the case of the Crow Creek Sioux and the IRS seizure of their land. We in Indian Country have to take a stand and say that the US shall no longer take anything more from Indian tribes, that they've taken enough. Now it's time to give back.
35413099Tuesday, Jan 12 at 5:20 PM Ray wrote ...
Hi 4globe. If you can imagine Congress agreeing to acknowledge their lack of plenary power, then your imagination is greater then mine. However, in a recent hearing of a Senate subcommittee, I did hear an acknowledgement here and there that Indian nations were actually (inherently and inalienably?) in charge of their own business. What a radical concept. And committee members will be replaced each election cycle. That’s why I say incremental, not because I would choose that as an approach.
35409562Tuesday, Jan 12 at 4:47 PM 4globe wrote ...
Ray, I'm not sure if the incremental approach is the best, at least I'd rather find the least incremental approach possible. In regards to the Thornberry quote, it seems that the US has in effect, renounced the doctrine that it is a credible guardian or trustee of our affairs -- in the recent Cobell settlement. The settlement agreement and/or the enacting legislation ought to include language renouncing the DD perhaps? Will including that language there help us?
35406949Tuesday, Jan 12 at 4:24 PM Ray wrote ...
4globe, the case scenario can be any challenge of plenary power even if incremental. CERD expert Patrick Thornberry suggested to the U.S. in 2001, “Landmark Supreme Court cases in the nineteenth century had determined a broad doctrine of indigenous people as domestic dependent nations in a state of helpless inferiority that called for guardianship and protection, and of the Government’s plenary power over the tribes. The United States had yet to renounce that doctrine, despite its racist roots.”
35405097Tuesday, Jan 12 at 3:46 PM 4globe wrote ...
Hi Ray, I believe that the inalienable collective rights approach is being utilized by the indigenous NGO's that participate in the United Nations arena. Getting the US to endorse the Decl. on the Rts of Indig. Peoples is part of this approach, but will it overturn the DD? Don't we need a case scenario that challenges the US plenary power and thus, challenges US power of taxation over Indian tribes?
35402109Tuesday, Jan 12 at 2:47 PM Ray wrote ...
This is not so much a question of individual rights and individual arrests as in civil rights days, but more of the collective rights (of the Indian nation) as articulated in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. There are many cases of collective rights being violated all the time and some of them have good Indian lawyers. Using inherent and inalienable collective human rights as part of a legal argument in fact turns back the racist assumptions of the Doctrine of Discovery.
35397459Tuesday, Jan 12 at 2:35 PM NdnGirl wrote ...
I am sure many people are aware of the DD and what it has done to our peoples. But like another person pointed out, why will it not be taken out in court as a completely lame piece of bull? Well, of course it will nullify any land claims, any government control over Indian people what so ever. However, like the other person pointed out, we will have to chip at it. The African American civil rights was different, they wanted equity in everything. Indigenous are different, one word SOVEREIGNTY
35396394Tuesday, Jan 12 at 2:29 PM anonymous wrote ...
In the San Francisco Peaks case, the court ruled that putting treated sewage effluent made into snow for a private business would not place a substantial burden on the Indian nations who turn to the mountain as a sacred place of spiritual practice. The court would not place the same restriction on a church, i.e. require being christened with sewage effluent. The assumption that one set of spiritual beliefs are superior to another started somewhere and needs to be overturned. This is racism.
35395902Tuesday, Jan 12 at 2:18 PM 4globe wrote ...
Hi Judy, I'm not sure if getting arrested is a good strategy anymore but if it were in the context of a viable legal strategy to overturn the Discovery Doctrine, I believe that there are hundreds of American Indians who would put themselves on the line and get arrested. My question is still, what case scenario will work?
35394841Tuesday, Jan 12 at 1:35 PM Judy wrote ...
In order to chip away at the Doctrine, Marshall Trilogy, etc, it would require native people to take arrest and get strategically selected cases rolling. I'm pessimistic here because most ndns won't take the same kind of risks that African Americans did in order to overturn the racist cases of their days. Most ndns buy into assimilation and don't want to rock the boat so good luck finding even 40 ndns who would take the required stand.
35391112Tuesday, Jan 12 at 1:12 PM 4globe wrote ...
One question I have for those who want to discuss it is how the Doctrine of Discovery is going to be overturned? Can we approach this as though it were the Dred Scott decision? To overturn it do we not have to overturn the Marshall Trilogy, or just Tee Hit Ton? Also, how would this be incorporated into the San Francisco Peaks case? What is the optimum case scenario to overturn the Discovery Doctrine?
35389139Tuesday, Jan 12 at 11:39 AM Starman wrote ...
Kinew-Just as I thought. You can't point to a single accomplishment of your own other than your blood quantum, which really is your parent's accomplishment. You make some general, unspecified claims that there are people fighting for unnamed tribes in some unidentified legal battles that you pretend to be a part of. But when pressed about it, you can't come up with a single instance to back up your assertions. In the end, all you have is your cdib, which isn't unique in ndn country btw.
35381072Tuesday, Jan 12 at 10:38 AM native woman wrote ...
Kinew - your jealousy is unbecoming. Who made you the enrollment police and what do we know about you, except that your comments are petty and waste space. The majority of readers benefit from the insightful thinking of Newcomb and others who don't buy into your petty thinking. Take your comments elsewhere.
35376536Tuesday, Jan 12 at 10:01 AM Indian Survival wrote ...
Clearly, there is prejudice against NDNs in the federal and state governments and among the political parties. Every time we speak of sovereignty and our right to govern ourselves without interference, we challenge the legitimacy of the federal govt and the states and threaten the power of the political parties. If they agree on nothing else, they agree that our sovereignty must be stopped. We need to work together to gain enough power to survive against that unified effort against us.
35373892Tuesday, Jan 12 at 8:49 AM Trollspotter wrote ...
Again, Kinew. And you too Common Native. Are you trolls paid to change the subject and attack the author or are you just doing it out of personal need? It is a real testament to the importance of this topic that you two and others are trying so hard to change the subject - trolls, trolls, and who's that trying to cross my bridge? This article is a call to action - repudiate this false premise in court. Instead you two try to become the identity police. Or are you the little Billy Goat Gruff?
35369772Tuesday, Jan 12 at 6:45 AM Kinew wrote ...
Newcomb, Do'nt deny your mostly white either. You identify with the little blood you supposedly have so you can make money off that identity. Nothing new the Bruchacs (Joe and Marge) have been doing it for years. Starman- Stay there.
35365807Tuesday, Jan 12 at 2:18 AM Common Native wrote ...
Newcomb at times seem very defensive...uncertain. I for one have never heard of any concrete contribution, other than books from him - there is a difference between spewing repetitious verbiage and defending a tribe against this same situation in real terms. Anyone can do research and write books, does not take a legal scholar.
35360159Monday, Jan 11 at 11:54 PM Chukfi wrote ...
I don't get it. What is this guy's point?
35354204Monday, Jan 11 at 11:35 PM Michael Mack wrote ...
Many in Indian Country complain about the state of things, yet don't offer constructive ideas about how to make it better. We all know the U.S. government has succeeded in minimizing criticism and rendering it impotent. Unfortunately too many remain stuck in wallowing in the impotence rather then offering construct ideas. If there is any hope for a positive future for Indian Country it will be from people like Newcomb who see clearly the heart of the issue, articulate it, and work towards it.
35353309Monday, Jan 11 at 6:49 PM Newcomb wrote ...
To Kinew: According to your logic, any Indian person who has more than one ancestral line can only identify with one. So, should I deny my grandmother's Shawnee bloodline or my grandfather's Delaware (Lenape) bloodline? Oh, I almost forot. You're only interested in a federal colonial enrollment. Well, I have one of those too, but it's really none of your business...Why are you trying to change the subject away from the foundation of federal anti-Inian law. Are you from the Troll Band!
35337077Monday, Jan 11 at 4:55 PM Bowe wrote ...
Indian lawyers are just earning a paycheck. They aren't cut from the same mold of civil rights attorneys who crafted strategies designed to overturn the prevailing legal wisdom of the time. Most of them don't come from the communities they get scholarships on behalf of and they spend most of their time justifying the legal colonization the rest of us live under. We are better off abandoning the law as a solution and need to look elsewhere. And stop paying these sell out attorneys too.
35328757Monday, Jan 11 at 3:43 PM 4globe wrote ...
Indian peoples are faced with a tremendous uphill battle to prevail in US courts. They tell us to go to school, study hard, become lawyers, only to lose case after case. Why? Because the foundations of US law are those precepts that justify colonialism, war, land theft, invasion, occupation, -- to sum it up, the genocide of indigenous peoples. It's not about moral reasoning, no, it's about a life and death power enforced by soldiers, guns, and as Newcomb points out, also enforced by the Church.
35323029Monday, Jan 11 at 2:35 PM ndnlawyer wrote ...
Indian lawyers are very aware of the Doctrine of Discovery and other nonsense. However, they also want to win, and those wins benefit Indian peoples. You can speak truth to power all you want, but the rest of us will be trying to make changes that actually benefit the daily lives of our people and our nations.
35317849Monday, Jan 11 at 1:40 PM Starman wrote ...
Kinew-then why don't you write something and submit it to ICT? I'm willing to bet that you have nothing provocative to add other than the standard fed ndn law slogans of how we are domestic dependent nations. I also doubt you have ever contributed anything or have been on the front lines of whatever nation it is that you are from. In short, you have contributed probably as much as a non native meaning you have given very little and have nothing to really offer. Prove me wrong.
35313581Monday, Jan 11 at 1:13 PM indianlawyer wrote ...
Do you really think that the Supreme Court is going to buy this argument? "Whoops, that was a big mistake, sorry, here is all your land back." Tribes have real issues at stake, and their attorneys have to make legal arguments that have at least a chance of winning.
35311541Monday, Jan 11 at 1:10 PM kinajin wrote ...
The use of the first person singular "I" is christian.
35311264Monday, Jan 11 at 8:11 AM Kinew wrote ...
Its supposed to be a Native newspaper. Let them write for the NYTimes or whatever. Native writers and scholars can and should be paid for what they (D'Errico and Newcomb) do.
35292664Monday, Jan 11 at 5:07 AM just me wrote ...
Shawnee, Lenape, red or yellow, black or white? What difference does it make? Justice is exactly that. If the American government is based on Christian religion, as I believe it is, it contradicts itself and therefore nullifies and voids itself.
35290087Monday, Jan 11 at 4:42 AM just me wrote ...
I love Newcomb's book. I also love Vine Deloria's "God Is Red". And Ward Churchill's "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" and Russell Means "Where White Men Fear to Tread". Face the truth. Ask Tim Giago what it feels like to be forced into white christianity. "The only good Indian" is an Indian. Regardless of tribal affiliation. Indigenous.
35289836Monday, Jan 11 at 1:32 AM Real NDN wrote ...
Newcomb makes money of the back of the natives telling their plight in terms of christian atrocities. His story does not touch the primary evil of man and the many ethicist racial crimes committed against the original inhabitants of this great land. His repetitious publishing's bound and sold as books need only to be read once - the others published under separate cover are more or less duplicates.
35285799Sunday, Jan 10 at 8:24 PM Kinew wrote ...
Native, My point is ICT has non native writers articulate supposedly native issues. Real native people can do this without the help of non natives or wannabees like Newcomb. Courageous please he gets paid to write, give that money to natives. Its what you get from a casinopaper.
35271059Sunday, Jan 10 at 7:53 PM Native wrote ...
"Kinew," I can see your point. I "google-image" peoples names all the time because white people or non-Indian’s think they can speak for the Indian without our permission. And reading them, for the most part is a big waste my time. And unfortunately, some are even tribal members. But with Newcomb, I really don't care whether he's a tribal member or not since his writings always, always hits the bulls-eye, not to mention very courageous.
35269359Sunday, Jan 10 at 6:39 PM Kinew wrote ...
Native, Truth? I want clarity. I did'nt imply anything . I asked a question and as always these types do'nt answer. I have no problem with what he writes about. Who and what is he is the question. He has made himself a public figure and writer about native issues not me.
35265217Sunday, Jan 10 at 5:52 PM John wrote ...
I have no problem with anyone who is willing to expose the house of cards that Federal Indian Law is built on. The message is important here, not the messenger. Perhaps if a few more of those who claim to have some exclusive right to speak on these subjects would do so, the message could gain the attention it deserves instead of who is delivering it.
35262389Sunday, Jan 10 at 4:30 PM Native wrote ...
"Kinew," Although I too have a problem with non-tribal members writing on behalf of Indians, I don't think Steven Newcomb is like the rest of them that do. Now, as a tribal member myself, it's reading and educating others about the truth Newcomb writes about, that's the point, yet you imply Newcomb should not be writing about the truth, and it leads me to believe you don't want the truth to be revealed. If this is so, just say it and get it over with. We can dismiss your comments quicker.
35259104Sunday, Jan 10 at 8:47 AM Kinew wrote ...
Shawnee/Lenape? Your either one or the other as being a tribal member goes, so I take it you are not. In that case you should note all your other ethnicities also. This article is just another rendition of the Pagan/ Christian conflict you've written.
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