Story Published:
Jul 28, 2010
Story Updated:
Jul 26, 2010
Editor’s note: This is the first in a four-part special series examining the disappearance and murders of hundreds of First Nations girls and women in Canada. Part one highlights sex trafficking of children and the failure of police and the Canadian government to fully investigate these crimes.
VANCOUVER, British Columbia – Cherri was 11 years old the first time she was bought and sold.
Alone on the streets of Vancouver’s downtown Eastside, abruptly abandoned by her new “boyfriend,” she was accosted by an older man who said he’d bought her, and insisted she now belonged to him.
Shocked by how this could happen, she resisted, and tried to flee. But following a severe beating, she relented and went with the man, who took her to a seedy hotel where she was kept for weeks being indoctrinated into the lifestyle of a child prostitute.
Cherri was told she’d have to earn her keep, and soon became part of his “stable” of children forced into sexual slavery by a savvy racket of pimps and pedophiles who prey on vulnerable young girls with nowhere to go.
Taken from her family as a baby, she’d spent most of her youth bouncing around more than 10 foster homes by the time she fled the sexual abuse she endured under state-sponsored foster care.
So she ran away, thinking there had to be something better.
In downtown Vancouver, she met a charming young man who befriended her and acted like a “boyfriend” for a week, buying her meals, a few clothes, jewelry and makeup. He showed her around Vancouver’s downtown, pointing out the women’s resource center and local soup kitchen where she could get a meal. Then he abandoned her.
That’s when the pimp showed up. That was no accident – it’s all part of a larger scheme to find vulnerable, defenseless youth stuck in limbo between homelessness and the long road home, according to the Aboriginal Women’s Action Network, an organization working on the frontlines to help exploited girls and women.
The girls – ranging in age from 11 to 17 – are routinely introduced to crack cocaine or heroine, and fed a steady diet of alcohol to “loosen them up” and numb them from the horrific experiences they are forced to endure.
The goal is to quickly get them hooked on drugs so soon they are working to support their drug dependency, making it harder for them to escape.
At a time when most girls are in middle school, Cherri was turned out to work the “kiddy stroll,” an area on Franklin Avenue near the waterfront where anyone can buy sex from a child.
“At first they seem like they might be nice to you,” she said. “But then the sex starts and they get mean, and do things to hurt you. I wonder if they have daughters at home, and if they would want them treated this way. Or do they just want to do these things to me?”
To make matters worse, the men who are buying children include people one would not normally suspect – like Judge David Ramsay, who pled guilty in 2006 to charges of procurement and sexual assault on four First Nations girls between the ages of 12 and 16.
All of the girls assaulted had appeared before him in youth or family court, and although a police investigation was initiated in 1999, he was not removed from the bench until 2002, three years after the investigation began.
Gina, another girl forced into sex work, said, “During my time on the street I was physically and sexually abused so many times I couldn’t count if I tried, sometimes with knives and guns. I remember hearing about women that were going missing or were found dead when they were “working” the street. I hate to call it working – it wasn’t a job – men were paying to violate me.”
She said she feared men who wanted to take her out of city limits and refused to go. “If I did, I would be dead too. My friends never had the chance to tell their story because they were found dead in places like the Pickton farm. I cry for them. I even helped carve a memorial (totem) pole for those that disappeared or were found dead. Our sisters are still going missing all the time.”
Robert William Pickton, of Port Coquitlam, British Columbia is a pig farmer and serial killer who confessed to the murders of 49 women. He was charged in the deaths of 20, but only convicted of the second-degree murders of six women in 2007.
At least six of his victims were First Nations women, some whose bodies were never found because he fed many of his victims to his pigs. Soil samples later revealed DNA evidence of some of the murdered women.
While many of the girls on the streets disappear or are found murdered, many missing women and girls had no links to prostitution – they were simply hitchhiking or went out for an evening and never came home, said Angela MacDougall, executive director of Battered Women’s Support Services in Vancouver.
MacDougall is a leader in the fight to demand that police and government officials fully investigate and prevent the widespread violence against First Nations women and girls.
As of March 2010, more than 580 Native women and girls have been murdered or disappeared throughout Canada, according to the Native Women’s Association of Canada, which conducted a five-year study to collect evidence that documented issues of violence that women, families and communities had been pointing to for nearly two decades.
“That number came from just one study, but we know it’s much higher. More than 2,900 people signed petitions during last year’s March4Justice across Canada looking for their daughters, sisters, mothers, and aunties,” said MacDougall.
Laura Holland from the Aboriginal Women’s Action Network agrees. “The study was just the tip of the iceberg because many cases have not been documented. For years, no one kept track of what happens to aboriginal women – they don’t seem to care,” she said about the police and provincial social service agencies.
Though Native families have reported relatives missing for the last 20 years, only recently did Vancouver police organize a task force to look into the high number of missing women.
Limited police cooperation only happened recently after thousands of people organized marches for several years in downtown Vancouver on Valentine’s Day to bring attention to the lack of response from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and government agencies.
Gladys Radek, an organizer of the March4Justice across Canada, was trying to find her missing niece Tamara Chipman when she first became aware of how many families were affected. Chipman was last seen hitchhiking on Highway 16 in Prince Rupert, British Columbia, and was reported missing in December 2005.
Radek said there are currently more than 3,000 missing women in Canada, 40 percent of which are of aboriginal descent.
Given the fact that First Nations people as a whole only make up three percent of Canada’s population, Radek was alarmed and created the walk to raise awareness of the missing and murdered women and children, and to educate communities about the violence against women.
Now in its fourth year, the 2010 Walk4Justice is currently underway from British Columbia to Manitoba. In September 2008, Radek and supporters presented more than 2,900 names to Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Ottawa, Ontario and demanded that public inquiry be held.
She and an alliance of other organizations are demanding attention be paid to the lack of full investigations by the police and the fact that perpetrators remain unpunished.
Part two of this series explores the links between widespread racism, oppression and abuse in Canada’s residential schools, the “60s scoop” that placed thousands of Native youth into foster care, and the systemic social and economic conditions that contribute to this tragic situation.
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Summer said on Thursday, Aug 26 at 12:37 AM
It is so sad to read about defenseless youths living a horrific life on the streets where despicable men get gratification from raping and beating them. It makes my stomach turn. I’ll never eat pork again now that I know farmers can feed pigs dead human bodies and then they probably take these same pigs to market.
50627666Rose Ann said on Tuesday, Aug 24 at 12:33 AM
It is so disgusting that things like this are still going on!! What can I do? Let's take action!!!!!
50468404EagleFury said on Monday, Aug 23 at 4:47 PM
Shame on those who attack Ms. Taliman for calling attention to one of the worst effects of Canada's past and present white racism. If you are ashamed of the truth in this article, join those of us who want to deal with this horrifying crime against innocent human beings. If you're simply angry that Ms. Taliman is calling out Canadian genocidal and racist policies in public, perhaps you suffer from the same apparent lack of compassion and acceptance of others driving Canada's racist and genocidal federal government "leaders" and bureaucrats.
50445926Very Sad Story said on Wednesday, Aug 18 at 12:01 PM
I left an abusive relationship because I had too. The abuser was from my own tribe. I later found out that he beat up everyone he was with and had tons of children, on top of this he would never fight another MAN. If a real man challenged him he would recoil and say that guy was a really mean person. I can't stand abusive childish men. These girls have no choice, they are locked in a horrible situation...How can something like this happen here? Why don't the First Nations People bring this to the attention of the British Government, aren't they, Canadians connected with that country?
50073439NATIVE said on Friday, Aug 13 at 3:55 PM
TRIBES SHOULD WAKE UP.THE PREDATORS ARE OUT THERE.SAFE GUARD OUR CHILDREN,OUR WIVES,OUR DAUGHTERS,THE TRIBAL FUTURE DEPENDS ON IT.TRIBAL FUTURE DEPENDS ON IT.WITH OUT WOMEN,CHILDREN,AND MEN THERE IS NO TRIBE.HENCE NO TRIBAL PEOPLE.NO INDIGENOUS TRIBAL ENTITY.NO NATIONS.
49786948navajo said on Thursday, Aug 12 at 4:38 PM
Hey Valarie, Yah tey hey!!! Good reponse to ana--- Keep up the good work!! John that was at UNPFII !!!!
49714101Wahiahawi said on Monday, Aug 9 at 12:11 PM
Thanks ICT and Valerie for shedding light on this issue. I can't believe this happens to our young women, its so disheartening! Its hard to read but important for people to know that this is happening, STILL - injustices to our people. So sad.
49454883Lakota Winyan at Pine Ridge said on Sunday, Aug 8 at 10:51 PM
@anonymous: sounds like you just want to attack the writer, Valerie Taliman with some of your own personal issues. Quit wasting time with your pettiness, this story is important and hurtful to many relatives of the slaughtered women and girls. Thanks to Valerie for taking the courage to research and write this story, ignore anonymous and her pettiness.
49426734dee said on Wednesday, Aug 4 at 11:29 PM
yes true about the adoptions in the U.S. my granddaughter was taken away and is never allowed to see her natural parents or even her grandparents and the people who have her only want her for her per capita she gets 3 times a year and they have a adoption kennel they have or are taking care of 6 children and the door keeps rotating.who knows what they are doing with the children.
49186738Danielle said on Tuesday, Aug 3 at 4:39 PM
I believe this story will help shed light on an issue that needed to be addressed. It is wrong for officials of the US to go to another country and take advantage of a child. These girls are being abused and more needs to be done to protect these girls. Native People, of all Nations, need to stand together to protect their children and young adults. If Natives are going to stand by and watch without lending a helping hand and standing up for themselves who will?
49093257Mara said on Monday, Aug 2 at 5:22 PM
Yes, Candace, the adoption industry with the full cooperation of our government and it's judges have been selling and redistributing children for profit and calling it adoption. ADOPTION IS A 5 BILLION DOLLAR/YEAR INDUSTRY. Children (native and non-native) are stripped of their identities and sold as blank slates to people willing to pay big bucks for a baby.
49022992Candace Colbert Odom said on Sunday, Aug 1 at 7:03 PM
Can it be true that American Judges Like this Ramsay would take a child and sale it to the highest bidder, a child born from one of the First Americans and make a profit from this innocent one??? This seems to be the theme of a movie "Taken" but could this "really" be going on??? That men who are sitting in judgement of us as mothers, fathers, taking advantage of the offspring of Native People to line their pockets with money, how could this be going on??? They have been taking children from the Native Americans Families for how long???
48965539native warrior said on Sunday, Aug 1 at 3:28 AM
if we as natives can come together and keep on praying for our people like our elders did. a lot more can be done, we are spiritual people let the spirits do the moving to help our children and families with a day of prayer
48933498Irv Powless said on Friday, Jul 30 at 3:10 PM
Valerie keep on keepin' on. It is important and imperative to all Indigenous People what you write.It is important to the non-native community to become informed. It is easy to take perceptual short-cuts such as blaming the victim, first impressions, viewing people as constant, and the halo effect because it doesn't take any time. To learn and build relationships takes time . How about if the uninformed work to get informed and build a relationship(s) with those that you know little about to avoid these perceptual shortcuts. Our job on this earth is to make each other brilliant. Human beings - work on encouragement not discouragement. Niawen
48849801Terri Hansen said on Friday, Jul 30 at 12:29 AM
In hiding behind the cloak of anonymity, "anonymous," as a journalist herself is not abiding by the ethics of sound journalism. Her comments, which have no relationship to this article make clear she is following Ms. Taliman, a longtime respected journalist and media specialist, as well as the respectable news source ICT, with the intent to malign. Were I the target I’d say someone is treading dangerously close to potential legal issues. Ms. Taliman’s work speaks for itself. Her news reporting is transparent and truthful. She covers issues where others tread too lightly. It’s a journalist’s job to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Ms. Taliman does that exceptionally well, whether she is offering commentary on the op-ed pages, working with individuals like Oren Lyons and organizations like the Iroquois Nationals who seek to effectively get their message to the public, or doing hard news reporting, as she does in this article.
48802923Anonymous said on Friday, Jul 30 at 12:25 AM
-"What the Iroquois Nationals chose to do with regard to the passport issue was their decision, not Ms. Taliman's." Doubtful. Why aren't there any quotes from the players, the opionions that truly matter? Not a bunch of political drivel and lawyer speak. Ask them if they "Just wanted to play" and prove themselves. I'm sure you'll find a dissenting opinion if not a few angry athletes. England is a sovereign nation and they gave an ultimatum that was chosen to be ignored. Sometimes, a simple game can prove more than petty 'on the principal' politics. What if Jesse Owens boycotted the Berlin '36 Olympic games? We need more Billy Mills people, not another martyr(s). That's truly progressive... .
48802724Some Insight said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 3:18 PM
Let's see, Anonymous apparently says of Ms. Taliman: "She's always been about making a supposed travesty out of everything, that's for sure." What like the trafficking of Indian children? Ms. Taliman writes an informative and insightful article about a dire human rights issue, and some twit refers to child trafficking as a "supposed travesty." The only real travesty that I see here is the ridiculous comment that is obviously written in spite. What the Iroquois Nationals chose to do with regard to the passport issue was their decision, not Ms. Taliman's. She can publicize the issue as much as she wants and not interfere with her ability to be the excellent reporter and writer that she is.
48766839mim said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 1:04 PM
Yea, america and canada are both vying for last place to sign the "rights to indigneous People Doctrine because they relish treating Natives like they've been, since the first contact with the Native Americans! These countries if they had to go to court on all these crimes done to the Natives they bee ousted by the united nations! It's pretty pitiful. We as native mothers and fathers must pull together and keep track of our children to knkow where there at all times! We must put the bottle and drugs aside and work as a family unit to protect our own because as we can see we have no protection unless you follow your cultures!It's prety sad that all these natives girls, woman went missing? How did that happen were all by themselves when they went missing. yeah those europeans are a breed of their own! they want to own everyone and everything!and to give hoot to the real owners!
48750714Ama Flama said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 12:46 PM
A nation can only be as strong as its families, when the hearts of its women are on the ground then it is done no matter how strong its weapons or brave its warriors! If this kind of victimization continues our Red Nation will have no future, our children are having children and passing on such injured instinct. It's time to REVERSE THE ELEMENTS OF COLONIZATION 1 household at a time and support our women to maintain their boundaries within their homes!
48748694Cheryl Little Horse said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 10:08 AM
Wow, that anonymous person has some real issues and appears to have completely missed the point of the article. Like someone said, who cares what one calls oneself - it's the work that counts - and this work should engender some compassion for Native women and children - not an attack on the messenger. The second point I would like to make is that would the Nationals did, and what Valerie brought to the attention of the world (a world that ALWAYS ignores Native issues) was a principled stand for Indigneous human rights and sovereignty. I had the privilege to work with the Nationals and their passports in the past and KNOW that though those boys were disappointed I'm sure, none of them would have chosen to go on an American passport. The whole point of going is not simply a sporting event; it is to announce that they are the protectors and future of Native nations in North America. Valerie did an excellent job at both this article and the publicity about the Nationals. Pila maya
48729689Mara said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 9:58 AM
Let's get back to the FACT: Children (native and non-native) are sold for big bucks today under the fuzzy-wuzzy label of "adoption". Their names are changed at that time. The sealing and amending of the birth certificates of adopted children needs to stop NOW. This act alone allows many children to be "legally" shoved under the legal radar where many abuses occur. Contact your representatives in government and tell them that you want the laws changed and all the sealed birth certificates to be opened. I have a feeling many missing persons will be found.
48728394Valerie Taliman said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 9:24 AM
To anonymous - so you believe the Iroquois Nationals should give up their identity to serve the needs of England? They don't think so. Our media campaign to support Haudenosaunee sovereignty is not a publicity stunt or my crusade - it is the choice of Six Nations Chiefs and team members to hold true to their identify and honor their heritage. Clearly, you missed the point, and have no respect for the rights of indigenous peoples or the strong young men who stood up for their identity. Who are you to speak against the Haudenosaunee people and dismiss their fight for self-determination as "drama"?
48724379native said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 5:44 AM
this aspect of dehumanization and genecidal proportions has no boundries.this attempt at destroying the tribal existence on this continent by kiddnaping children and selling them to a high bidder.to rape and murder women.an attempt at preventing procreation by murdering tribal women?what tribal member has responded?what has the creative un council done about it?this un who created the declaration of indigenous rights?what are these tribes planning to do?is there a plan to safe guard native tribal children?and tribal women?and tribal lands?tribal human rights are being violated.take care of the commodity that procreates native tribal existence preservation is survival.
48709354gramma2 said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 2:57 AM
this is so wrong what is happening to children. how could this have gone on for so long without anyone noticing? i pray that healing will occur for them and their families. to the girls who have been harmed, it is not your fault - there are many of us who hope that you will find a good place to recover and know that we are hoping so many things will get better for you. you are loved.
48705464m.b.l. said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 1:43 AM
Being sold into sexual slavery and made into drug/alcohol addicts is an awful experience for any person to endure, let alone children. Couple that with the daily toll of living in a town/country that cares so little for your welfare that they won't even investigate thousands of abductions, murders and rapes is just plain disgusting. My prayers go out to all those missing, hurting, and searching. And to Anonymous: leave Valerie alone. You're entitled to your opinion but I don't see how your comment could be seen as a contribution to the discussion to anyone but you and your ego. She is shedding light to a rarely discussed and highly problematic issue regarding our Native sisters, cousins, mothers, aunties to the North. Put yourself--or a woman in your family-- in the place of any one of these girls or women and the horrific events they live through or die from and you'll be thinking in a very different way, unconcerned with who writes about it.
48703344Anonymous said on Thursday, Jul 29 at 12:13 AM
"You can't be both and have any credibility for yourself or this newspaper. She was recently quoted in the news as a publicist." She's always been about making a supposed travesty out of everything, that's for sure. The Iroquois Nationals would have been better served just by following the UK rules and getting a passport that they wanted. That they may be a 'sovereign nation,' but so is England and they have their rules. Just to make a publicity stunt out of it for your own 'drama' is a disservice to Native athletes who would have been better served showing off skills instead of being a martyr for Taliman's "crusade." Just had to say that....
48699554Rezolution said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 10:48 PM
Its time to make a move my indian brothers and sister. time to take a look at our cousins north american wide. You can be the difference, and who cares is the reportes is a publicist or reporter. fact of the matter is our people need hope. If we want to heal we must recognize there are others who need your help!!
48693779Mara said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 7:12 PM
The adoption industry allows children to be "laundered" and given new identities. I wouldn't be surprised if more pedophile judges both in Canada and the U.S. weren't involved in this laundering/prostitution of children for profit. That is what adoption is, selling children for profit.
48680119Gerald Roubideaux said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 4:45 PM
I don't know what Valerie is responding to in her comment. Did ICT delete the comment she is referencing? If so, I think they should repost it so people know what Valerie is responding to. As for the issue at hand, I think it's fine for Valerie to do both PR and journalism as long as she doesn't report on issues that she's advocating on.
48666919harbharb said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 2:34 PM
To anonymous: Taliman can do both as long as it is clear that she is doing journalism here and PR there. ICT should be clear about her background and add it to the rest of the series of articles. It would also show whether she has special expertise. If she is a freelancer, she could have done part of her work by telephone and part in person and put the story together from home. And there's nothing wrong with that.
48652579C.H. said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 2:14 PM
Thank you for this series. Its an opportunity to hear from northern relatives about their experience, and to be part of doing something now armed with facts. That this is eye opening is the very least I can say after crying, my tears now running with our sisters and, together, we will cry a river that will wash shining light on how much has to change to achieve a universal vision for a truly just society. I can't say enough how much my heart hurts to know this is happening. I signed up recently for a tourism site for Canada that I no longer want to participate.
48650519Valerie Taliman said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 1:35 PM
I am not a news reporter on salary. I am an independent widely published writer of many genres. I spent nearly a month in Canada visiting several communities on my own dime and I work with First Nations peoples in six provinces. I was asked by Native women and traditional healers to help shed light on this tragic and alarming situation. I have written about human rights and sovereignty issues for 20 years as a reporter, editor, radio producer, columnist and advocate of Native rights. I believe I can be both an advocate of Indigenous rights (like the Haudenosaunee passports) and still report on the murdered and missing women in Canada with credibility. To avoid conflict of interest, I didn't write any news stories or columns about the Iroquois Nationals. Instead I acted as a strategist and writer to deliver a message to mainstream media - and I did so pro bono, so it's not about money. Our abused women and Haudenosaunee passports are both current examples of human rights abuses.
48645704Ama Flama said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 12:47 PM
it shouldn't hurt to be a child
48640319anonymous said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 12:09 PM
Is Valerie Taliman a publicist or a news reporter? You can't be both and have any credibility for yourself or this newspaper. She was recently quoted in the news as a publicist. Was she actually in Vancouver covering this story, or is this another ICT scam?
48635909saber tooth mountain said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 11:59 AM
canada does not exactly have a neat record as far as native peoples go. canada is considered right next door to australia. this means more and more that indigenous peoples have to unite and start the hard political work to mend itself, make itself stronger, richer. its like there is no one else out there who will help.
48634704Cat said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 11:07 AM
forget the UNCRC if they just freaking stuck to thier own laws and enforced them. The cops are the big part of this problem they are mostly jerks too who abuse women.
48629104cat said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 11:06 AM
There is such a pervasive disgust for women in Canada and natives it makes me ill. I moved there from the US married a Canuk and left. I am a 45 yr old female and felt like I had stepped back 40 yrs in time. women still use thier bodies to get what they want prostitution is legal and people want to sti and speak about pot all day long. Then the neglect of meaness towards children was like what I saw when I was a child. Children fear parents afraid to laugh or talk. I have some native blood in me from a great great grandmother. People treated me accirdingly. then i read in the meida that all N American natives are treated bad. Not in the US not anymore.
48628939Anon said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 3:01 AM
There is more hatred for Indians in Canada (especially Calgary) than anywhere else in North America.
48601064Skinwalker said on Wednesday, Jul 28 at 1:32 AM
Hudson Fur Trading Company practice alive and well
48598509December Representer said on Tuesday, Jul 27 at 10:15 PM
This is a very serious issue that definitely should be further looked into by the Canadian government.
48587654sesaly said on Tuesday, Jul 27 at 9:53 PM
The responsibility is ours, awareness about "them" is elusive, justice will always be in the form of higher accord. However we need to look at why are these communities rampantly having children, and losing children, and than this, where the elusive dark side becomes a feeding ground for the deeply sick. It's not just native women and children, look at Perry Dunlop, had friends and family not rallied for his safety, where would he be today, an rcmp that spoke out about a pedi ring from back east somewhere, involving priests, kids, and protective services.
48585694Sam said on Tuesday, Jul 27 at 1:10 PM
The First Nation people need to band together tighter than ever to overcome the oppressive nature of our country. We need more politicians that represent our best interests. Too many white privileged leaders who can't relate to what we deal with. We are the voiceless in Canada and when we are preyed upon nobody takes notice. First Nation and Metis people need to rise to the challenges that face our community and protect our own!
48538559wisconsinanishianbe said on Tuesday, Jul 27 at 11:15 AM
Canada what a joke when it think's it better than America in regards to race relations and justice. Canada is worse than America when it comes to Native issues
48525839eye4eye said on Tuesday, Jul 27 at 9:39 AM
I'm against the death penalty, but here's my suggestion for punishing the psychopathic criminals who do these things to children: Perform sex change operations on them, turning them into women. Then take them to the prisons where the worst, most violent serial killer/sex offenders (like them!) are spending life sentences with no possibility of parole and let the "women" loose in the prison yards. End of story.
48515644Laurie said on Tuesday, Jul 27 at 8:38 AM
The Canadian government is complacent and guilty of neglecting the UNCRC. The rights of the child is slowly disappearing through strategic efforts of various special interests groups. This has allowed such reverse programs to crop up such as the recent "safe haven" baby drop in BC. Many of Canada's First Nation children will lose their born right to identity by being laundered through safe havens and then sold through private adoptions into the hands of paying customers. First Nation people of Canada must keep fighting against the oppression and corruption. The pimps and traffickers are not the most evil in our country. Actually many politicians and special interests groups are the ones with the ultimate power in our country and use it in a way that keeps various vulnerable people in a powerless position.
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